Evidence me.

[3kul]

[Netdroid9]

Put yourself in DLM's position. You're on this forum your cousin browses religiously. You try to be nice, but people are mean to you. And let's be frank, we were mean to him. Eventually it gets too much and you do something stupid, like vandalize the wiki. You regret it later, but it's too late and you're banned and you aren't quite sure what's going on. So you make another account and try again, lying so people would at least give you a chance. It doesn't work, you get banned and you're back to square one with people you thought were supposed to be nice flinging insults at you left and right.

For crying out loud, people, he's not some evil bald guy trying to take over the world one forum at a time, he's a kid! He has feelings! How do you think he feels after all this? He feels like absolute scum-of-the-earth poo-poo, that's waht! And that's why we're respectful to everyone, not just members of The Secret Dojo Fun Club. And you can say 'it's his problem', or 'he deserved it', or 'why should I care', but fact is that it's not just his problem, it's your problem as well. And it's my problem. Every time you insult him, you insult me, because I know what it's like to be in his position and I most certainly don't want to make it harder for him. I wouldn't want to make it harder for anybody.

And on the same note, think about how you'd feel if you were a new member accused of being someone else, someone so clearly dispised by the other members. Just because you were a bad speller.

EDIT: Oh, and for the record, we should probably ask Panther next time something like this pops up, after all she is DLM's cousin (?).

[addman]

I fail to see the point in this argument, what's happened has happened. Yes, it was a little more public than it needed to be, but so is this argument. If you have a problem with the way this was handled, I suggest you talk to the Mods rather than debating this backwards and forwards in public.

Also, since no one else has mentioned this, I'm sorry to hear of your illness Net, hope everything is much better now.

[Netdroid9]

Thanks Addman, glad someone noticed .

The purpose of this thread is so that we can all learn from our mistakes and not make them in the future. It's also a way any questions can be made, opinions posted and reasons worked out. This is the fun part of moderating, at least in my opinion .

[GBE]

I'm hoping that I'm not on any rude or disrespectful list. I don't believe I was disrespectful. Originally, I in fact tried to help Psyconaut8 with his characters, as they were somewhat over powered. However, considering that the possibility he may have been DLM, I'm not entirely sure as to how much effort he really put into them.

When I aired myconcerns, I only stated what was there, bu I made sure not to out right accuse him of being DLM. Ok, maybe my views should not have been aired so easily, but I was trying to find out why his spelling had taken such a dramatic fall. Psyconaut in fact refered to himself as god using some kind of Doom cheat.

Maybe a few of us should have kept our conversation to ourself, but, I didn't see us trying to insult DLM directly, in fact, we tried to point Psyconaut in the direction of where certain offending posts were.

As for the use of DLM's characters, and the fact that they had the same e-mail address, even on a different computer aparantly! Would be enough to in the eyes of the law, normally consider a warrant to search the premises. Ok, we are not the law, but is reasonable suspicion not enough to be concerned (I'm sure those two last sentances are going to come back and bite me in the ass! ).

I do see where Net, Kat and Ashen are coming from, butthere was a discussion thread started up privately where the subject was discussed. And there was substantial evidence also provided by Shaon as to DLM's actions, and Psychonauts actions, if in fact they are two different people.

I agree with HLS, that a method to justify whether or not we say anything should be introduced (one thats as simple as possible ). But, as far as there was concern that DLM as Psyconaut, he was still being offered the benefit of the doubt, which none of you has in fact mentioned. Yes, we believed they were one and the same, but the benefit of the doubt, bar one statement was offered.

And like I said before, he was really given three chances. He could have just been banned outright by DP with no dscussion, I doubt anyone would seriously argue then. But, he was given a cvhance when he came back, and when he aroused our suspicions, that was his third and final chance after a warning statement.

We can't be afraid to take action and deal with any problems or nuisances. What would have happened were DP absent for some reason, and no-one banned him. He may (I am not saying that he would have) but he possibly may have run amok and annoyed our users and screwed up the wiki, which DP also qouted elsewhere for us mods and admins.

Right, this statement is somewhat jumbled, and I'm not denying that I jumped the gun, but, I was only in fact trying to help Psyconaut adjust to freeform rp, with hischaracters, and then, only then did his spelling drop.....

[Cloud]

Accounts are banned, not separate people. If that account was being abused then that is why it was banned, no matter whether it was DLM, or Psychonaut, or even Jesus himself.

[/EndofDiscussion]

[Netdroid9]

@GBE: ...I don't know where you got that, but it certainly doesn't sound right. Not all kids are allowed their own e-mail address, for the same reason a lot of kids aren't allowed into chatrooms: Over-protective parents. Definitely not enough for a search warrant, anyway. Or at least, I should bloody well hope it's not enough 0.o. And 'substantial evidence'? They had the same IP. Whoopde-doo. All that means is that they were on the same internet connection, say for example if they used the same computer or were on the same network (IE at an internet cafe or a library). Perfectly normal behaviour if they were both neighbors.

Even if you did have solid evidence, which you didn't, really, a public accusation is still unacceptable. It's still demeaning, unfair and against the Dojo spirit. You could've PMed him and done it privately rather than turn it into a public humiliation.

We can't be afraid to take action, no, but we can't be all gun-ho about it either. When we're insulting and hurtful to anyone on these forums, even a banned member, it brings down the reputation of the Dojo and makes us all look like bullys.

@Cloud: You missed the point. Read through the thread again, I know it's hard with all thewse super-long posts, but it'll give you a decent grasp of what I'm trying to achive here.

[EnDSchultz]

So. He's not some evil bald guy trying to take over the world. He's a kid. So he has feelings. But if he hasn't learned his lesson in social interaction by now, then I pity him. Granted, some people may have been 'hurling insults around'. But, really, all he needed to do to make things better was say 'I'm sorry'. Instead, he tried to argue with us, mock us (see my Owl Sensei thread for what I mean) and generally try to be a smarta$$. Is what we asked of him really so difficult?

[Netdroid9]

No, but that's no excuse to treat him like poo-poo.

[Yoshi]

Net, you're right. No one treated Psychonaut in a hospitable way and many of us were disrespectful. There's no excuse for being rude and it does reflect badly on the Dojo. Thankfully, however, it will not happen again because we have all learned our lesson thanks to your valuable insight.

GBE, you're right. Psychonaut was rude to us and extremely disrespectful. Just like EnD said, he was rather prone to spam and thought he was the king of the world. He really did somewhat invite the insults that were given to him.

Neither of you is really wrong, you're just looking at things from a different perspective. Now can we end this discussion once and for all? Its quickly degenerating and becoming quite tiresome for everyone (EDIT: BUT Kat_05 ). Just let it rest.

[Kat_05]

Not tiresome here! Do me a favor and edit that post to "everyone BUT Kat_05" will ya Yoshi?Haven't been around the computer lately (was helping a friend move) so I'm sorry I wasn't able to come back and further explain my defense of Net (though Ashen did better then I ever could!).

3kul, as far as I'm concerned there's no problem speaking your mind about Psycho now that he's actually banned, as long as you remember that until his status bar was actually changed, Psycho WAS a member of the dojo and had rights to respect because of it (even if he did nothing to actually earn the right).

Everyone seems to wonder why this subject is even important enough to bring up. I feel it is -know why?
Notice that Goron40 dissapeared from the forum towards the end of the Olympics. I have a feeling I may have insulted him a bit and driven him off, even if unintentionally, in just the way we're discussing here. He offended me with the way he's been acting even though it's nothing big. I tried not to attack him when I responded, but what I said could easily have been taken as an attack on his hard work in the Olympics. Does anyone really want this to become a problem? Better to work out where everyone stands now with the hypothetical situations concerning Psycho, rather than in reality and against other Dojo members that are a bit more popular.

Summary for everyone who is sick of long posts:

-Nobody cares whether Psycho was DLM or not.
-Nobody's arguing on whether DLM deseved banning (I think he did...)
-Regardless of the actions of Psycho (or any troll) that comes, we're better than retaliating (Thanks to Net for the reminder!)
-Maybe use pms more than public accusations?

[Swix]

*Ahem*

Not everyone was abusive to Psychonaut Yoshi, as I think 3kul pointed that out several times. If you look, you'll find that all I tried to do was help, and I never accused him of anything.

Now that that little rants over...

I happen to agree with Net and Kat on this. Some people did jump the gun a bit, and it's good that now everyone's had their attention brought to this thread that we can sort things out and at least increase our awareness of the tendency to do this.

As suggested perhaps a PM or two to Mods/Admins with peoples concerns with other members would have been more appropriate rather than outright accusing someone of something, be it put in conjecture or not.

That also should go for abusive comments and behaviour, as retaliating will only prove you're as bad as them.

[LordPsycho]

*goes home to grab the Sanity Blade to kill this thread*

[Raven]

Sorry DP, I have a post to write. >.<

Ok, we all messed up. (I don't remember if I said anything to, or about him. But I wasn't fond of him.) But I actually full heartedly agree with Net.
Just 'cause someone's 'annoying' or can't spell doesn't give us the right to abuse them. Some of my best friends can't spell properly, but I don't go ape-poo-poo (Sorry!) at them.

We all started somewhere, this might have been his first role playing site. Or, god forbid, he might have role played on Neo!

I got banned from a site when I first started role playing. Hell, I power played like hell, overused smiley's, had no grammar what so ever.
But because people were patient I made it through. I came out the other end reformed.

DLM did something stupid because he disliked people who were mocking him, abusing him. All he did was try and get revenge, what personally I'd also do.
So he did it stupidly. Yeah, the fool.

We've all probably been treated unfairly like that, but now that we're accepted, is it our turn to treat others like that?
I really don't think so. IMO, it's childish, and immature to judge someone on their spelling.

So, he didn't spell right. Hell, I only learned how to spell 'tomorrow' a month or two ago!
So, he was rude. He was just trying to get a little attention.
He was a kid, like me. Kids are stupid, we learn from experience.
I'd feel pretty damn hurt right now if this happened to me, no matter how stupid I'd been.

I think we should all try to be nicer if something like this happens in future. We didn't respect him. Without respect, a person is nothing.
I don't want to see anyone making fun of another Dojoian, or another person in the future. If he or she has done something wrong talk to the mods. Don't be man, and discuss them behind their back.
If someone has bad spelling, offer to help or give them a browser with spell check!
If someone can't RP well, then ask if they want a private RP to help them.

I know on JRC DLM was saying rape is funny, or whatever.
But hell, he's a kid. I know it's not funny, but what was he doing? Going "*Rapes <insert name here/>*"? Then when people yell at him just saying it was funny?
I used to do that! Jaysus, we call it surprise sex. It's all a joke to my friends and I, 'cause we all know none of us mean it. How do you know he doesn't mess like that with his friends? Maybe he was just trying to bring the things he finds funny and fit in, even though it backfired.

Seriously people. Talking behind someone's back is low, and I've done it before about people. Looking back I feel ashamed. I think of all the people who do it to me every day, and wonder why I sank to their level.
I'm sorry for ranting. If you don't care, feel free to ignore my plea.
But you're not a decent person if you do.

[GBE]

Raven, due to the transcripts that Shaon has posted, and some conversations I've had with a few JRC members, DLM was warned, several times, and banned, after being informed that rape, is not funny. So the fact that the situation was explained to him, and then he was warned, before being gagged, kicked, temp banned, and then perma banned shows that he can't learn.

Because your post is kind of contradictory. You say we should teach, not judge, and be patient. I'm pretty sure there's a heck of a lot of patience floating round about now, including on JRC. But, if we're patient forever, even though the situation doesn't improve, even with advice being given, wouldn't you say we're just a little bit gullible not to take action in that sense.....

((That bit was specifically aimed at the JRC section of your post/patience....))

Whereas on these forums, we were patient with DLM origninlly in the first place. He was banned after he failed to listen to advice given. How can we help someone who out-right refuses that help completely? And then continues to powerplay, abuse, spam, insult, and edit the wiki in an unpleasant manner? I don't see how we can.

In the case of Psyconaut ((partially aimed towards Net)), any evidence that can be used, will be used. A common occurance in cases I believe. Perhaps HLS could shed light here....

Yes, ok, people jumped the gun a bit with Psyconaut/DLM (it can't be proven they were one and the same (although the evidence points that they were) and it can't be proven that they weren't.

As far as it goes however, help was offered to Psychonaut originally. Hell, I even re-did his character profiles for him, as an offering of help. And then he snubbed them, and took/reclaimed the DLM characters.

He also falunted the fact that we couldn't proove either way if he was or wasn't DLM, which, I think is not a good sign really, when you try to act omnipotent. We all know the only uber being around here is me.. Ok, ok, DP then...

What can we do then, if offers of help are refused, and then they start becoming arrogant. Remember, offers of help were in fact offered, before the spelling dropped.

As for that point Raven, his spelling, as far as some are concerned must have been run through a spell-check of somekind before posting origninally, and then it deteriorated. 3kul even mentioned using a spell-check and correcting the mistakes in the profile he made.

That was flatly refused. We can't ask someone to do something if they've done it just to sneak back on. Or in any case, if they use a spell-check from the start and then stop, and even with repeated guidance they refuse. Punishments are probably going to happen because there's discussion on that already underway (a Blackstar crimes thingy mabob).

I have a dyslexic friend (and dyslexia is not a disability, as it has been proven that it can be overcome with the right teaching methods. Its as much of a few crossed wires, as it is about self-confidence and persistence). I don't mock him, and can actually read what he writes most of the time. He doewsn't use it as an excuse as he's got quite the imagination and is working on a story himself.

I doubt any mockery of spelling took place, and that was a bad accusation to throw out there. I'm not wordy like HLS or Ashen Rain, I don't have 3kul's imagination imo, but I still persevere and do my bloody best. I don't like to put up anything that I'd be annoyed with, and therefore should I not expect the same from any other member.

Spellchecking is literally a case of a few clicks. It's not hard, it's not exactly time consuming, a few seconds here and a few seconds there....

((End rant))